 | | Religion Discuss General Theology, Religions and Denominations, God's Attributes, Predestination and Free Will, Dispensationalism, Eschatology, Philosophy, Origins, Archaeology, Science, World History and other such topics. |   | | God Rules!
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| December 12th, 2010, 11:55 AM Quote: Originally Posted by JoeyArnold  Does not salvation include justification, sanctification, and glorification, all sealed and guaranteed at the moment and second of the instantaneous true authentic conversion prayer thing that people do to get saved or not? | Justification deals with the past. Sanctification involves the present. Glorification involves the future. What is true in the past may not be true in the future. Calvinists say there is a causal chain that is automatic. Others recognize that someone who is saved at time x may later fall away (Heb. 3; 6; 10) before they die and are eventually glorified. A believer who remains a believer will be sanc. and glor., but an apostate is no longer a believer so they end up condemned vs glor. in the end. The start of the race does not ensure finishing of the race in every case (shipwreck faith, return to vomit or pig pen).
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Posts: 51,506 Posts Per Day: 18.20 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Rep Power: 137551 Protestant Christian Right Wing Fanatic Slogan/motto:
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| December 12th, 2010, 11:57 AM Quote: Originally Posted by ghost Some people think God is a liar, when He made those promises. Some of them (Lion (lyin) faced) deceivers think that God can sin and so there is no guarantee that eternal life will be everlasting. | The promises are valid for believers (those who believe and continue to believe). They are not valid for apostates. We differ as to whether apostasy is possible, not whether believers have eternal life and are secure (true). Life is in the Son, not resident in us. We are not robots. Those who reject the Son, whether they once received Him or not, cannot have life apart from Him (except in false OSAS thinking)... I Jn. 5:11-13. We affirm the security verses, but it is you who calls God a liar by suggesting that apostates are not condemned like any other godless unbeliever. I take both motifs/passages seriously, but you proof text one and rationalize away the other (they were never saved, blah blah or are still saved despite rejecting Christ johnw).
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| | God Rules!
Posts: 51,506 Posts Per Day: 18.20 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Rep Power: 137551 Protestant Christian Right Wing Fanatic Slogan/motto:
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| December 12th, 2010, 12:00 PM Quote: Originally Posted by ghost Whether now or in heaven, it is still a promise that cannot be broken, lest God has lied. | The promise is to believers, not apostates. You cannot apply the believer texts to former believers. There is also a conditional element in the promise contexts....if....then.....if you are going to accept OSAS, you should logically accept universalism.
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| December 12th, 2010, 12:02 PM Joey-
As you are clearly not interested in conversation or correspondence I am done attempting either with you.
"So, freewill is not an illusion after all." -The Doctor | | |
| | | | Into the woods
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| December 12th, 2010, 12:11 PM Quote: Originally Posted by godrulz The promise is to believers, not apostates. | You are a liar, and a deceiver. You have a demon. A promise made by God to those in the Body of Christ cannot be broken by either party. Your demonic "theory", is an illogical fallacy (just as your corrupted so-called "faith"). When the Bible says that those who believe are sealed til the day of redemption, it is impossible for that to not come to pass. Neither you or God can change the outcome, or God has lied. Your perversion of this truth is proof that you are not in THE faith, and not in Christ. The Bible proves that you are a liar. Get saved.
Reformed Theology not only changed bad theology into worse theology; It changed the truth of the Bible into a lieCalvinism is Satan's masterpiece and his attempt to deceive the elect"Legalism is the delusion of the flesh’s ability to deal with sin. It is the proud, self-confident stance of those who have not yet been reduced to the helplessness of faith." | | |
| | Into the woods
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| December 12th, 2010, 12:22 PM Jesus says that those who receive His life (which is eternal) can NEVER perish.
It doesn't make any difference what happens after Jesus has given His life to them. They cannot perish for any reason or Jesus lied.
Anyone who teaches that something can change this promise made by Jesus, is the liar. They do not know Him, and he will say to THEM... "I NEVER knew YOU".
Reformed Theology not only changed bad theology into worse theology; It changed the truth of the Bible into a lieCalvinism is Satan's masterpiece and his attempt to deceive the elect"Legalism is the delusion of the flesh’s ability to deal with sin. It is the proud, self-confident stance of those who have not yet been reduced to the helplessness of faith." | | |
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Posts: 51,506 Posts Per Day: 18.20 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Rep Power: 137551 Protestant Christian Right Wing Fanatic Slogan/motto:
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| December 12th, 2010, 01:55 PM I can see the theological/logical flaws with your thinking, but you cannot, so save your wind, bag. Even so, rejecting OSAS is not rejecting Jesus, just Calvin.
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Posts: 20,318 Posts Per Day: 13.74 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Rep Power: 398589 Christian More right than left Slogan/motto: Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
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| December 12th, 2010, 01:56 PM Quote: Originally Posted by godrulz This is a probation period | Admits to being on probation and admits to not being saved (past tense).
"Christianity" is a mess. | | |
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| December 12th, 2010, 01:59 PM Quote: Originally Posted by SaulToPaul Admits to being on probation and admits to not being saved (past tense). | The probation period is for all men. This life is when we receive or reject Christ. There is no reincarnation nor second chances like JWs and Mormons teach. I am justified (past tense), being sanctified and have eternal life now(present tense), and will be glorified (not yet since I am not resurrected). You have to say the same thing (see Rom. 4-5; 8; I Jn. 5:11-13). You still blur the distinctions between just., sanc., glor, POTS. You also fail to appreciate Greek grammar/verb tenses, context, theology (ignorance is bliss in your world).
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Posts: 20,318 Posts Per Day: 13.74 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Rep Power: 398589 Christian More right than left Slogan/motto: Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
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| December 12th, 2010, 02:02 PM Quote: Originally Posted by godrulz The probation period is for all men. | Not me, I'm saved. Forever.
"Christianity" is a mess. | | |
| | Into the woods
Posts: 2,322 Posts Per Day: 17.29 Join Date: Nov 2010 Rep Power: 13881 Christian Right Wing Fanatic Slogan/motto:
If you're living for Jesus, STOP IT; He knows what He's doing
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| December 12th, 2010, 02:07 PM Quote: Originally Posted by SaulToPaul Admits to being on probation and admits to not being saved (past tense). | Yep! For godrulz, Jesus is not a Savior but a probation officer just waiting for him to disobey "the revealed moral law of God". What a sad religion he serves.
Reformed Theology not only changed bad theology into worse theology; It changed the truth of the Bible into a lieCalvinism is Satan's masterpiece and his attempt to deceive the elect"Legalism is the delusion of the flesh’s ability to deal with sin. It is the proud, self-confident stance of those who have not yet been reduced to the helplessness of faith." | | |
| | TOL Subscriber
Posts: 20,318 Posts Per Day: 13.74 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Rep Power: 398589 Christian More right than left Slogan/motto: Ephesians 3:9: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
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| December 12th, 2010, 02:09 PM Quote: Originally Posted by ghost Yep! For godrulz, Jesus is not a Savior but a probation officer just waiting for him to disobey "the revealed moral law of God".
What a sad religion he serves. | Cue the OSAS/POTS cliche........
"Christianity" is a mess. | | |
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With Oatmeal in my bowl, is Jesus in your soul?
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|  This is not instant messaging. I do not chat with people here. - December 12th, 2010, 04:51 PM Quote: Originally Posted by Lighthouse Joey-
As you are clearly not interested in conversation or correspondence I am done attempting either with you. | Dear all of TOL, This is not instant messaging. I do not chat with people here. I am a slow turtle at corresponding. Joey Arnold503.367.4695
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Posts: 3,612 Posts Per Day: 32.85 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Portland, OR Rep Power: 5870 Christian More right than left Slogan/motto:
With Oatmeal in my bowl, is Jesus in your soul?
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| You believe that salvation gives you only just justification? - December 12th, 2010, 04:54 PM Quote: Originally Posted by godrulz Justification deals with the past. Sanctification involves the present. Glorification involves the future. What is true in the past may not be true in the future. Calvinists say there is a causal chain that is automatic. Others recognize that someone who is saved at time x may later fall away (Heb. 3; 6; 10) before they die and are eventually glorified. A believer who remains a believer will be sanc. and glor., but an apostate is no longer a believer so they end up condemned vs glor. in the end. The start of the race does not ensure finishing of the race in every case (shipwreck faith, return to vomit or pig pen). | You believe that salvation gives you only just justification?But we may not get sanctification if we lose our salvation? And if we lose our salvation, we also won't get glorification, either? Because we'd be in Hell after that.
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#1 Everything is possible for God. #2 Nothing is impossible for God. Which one are we talking about?
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| December 12th, 2010, 05:02 PM Quote: Originally Posted by horiturk since they do not have any originals it is ridiculous to even assume that. the gospels genealogies differ,they don't agree when jesus was crucified,they all don't even mention the resurrection,words are different than jesus said in another gospel.....these are just a few of the many differences.entire verses were added later that were not there before in order to make them conform to the theology that was developed. | Most of this is true and is exactly what historians use to identify accurate historical accounts. Your argument goes against your point. If everything lined up perfectly, there would be some reason to suspect heavy tampering of the manuscripts. These discrepancies outline the consistency and validity of the accounts as independent. Quote: | you need to do some serious research on the descrepancies in the NT before stating that it is the word of God. | I study textual criticisms quite a bit and I’m very familiar with most if not all of the discrepancies you refer to. And as you say, after the doing said research, I can state with a great deal of certainty that it is the word of God. Quote: | as far as your hypothetical argument about witnessing the murder of a child,we have an innate instinct to protect our young so yes i would say it would be an evil act. | But could it be a morally justifiable act? You mentioned the holocaust earlier. What if you found out later that killing that child in that way prevented the holocaust from ever happening? What if you found out that someone had such an opportunity to do this very thing at one point in time, knowing they could prevent the holocaust from happening by doing so, but didn’t follow through with it? Would you consider this person evil for not preventing it?
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